Surviving Schizophrenia: A Mother and Son Story

Note: The Ezra Zaid Project is proudly produced by a crack team of audiophiles and the best way to enjoy it is to listen to it. This allows for greater nuance and emphasis that sometimes may not translate as well to the written transcripts that are available to download for each episode. It would be best to cross check the corresponding audio, before quoting us in print.

Hey everybody, before we start the show, a quick warning. This episode covers themes related to severe mental health issues, including suicide and depression; so, what you’re about to listen to could be sensitive for you. Feel free to feel it out, and if you need to skip, that's okay too. With that, here we go.

 

[music]

 

This is a mother-son story. My producer and collaborator, Rahmah Pauzi - she found this story and brought it to my attention a long while ago. So, she’ll be taking the lead on this for the rest of the show.

 

Hey Ezra. This was a couple of years ago; and at the time, I came across a lady named, Poh Kim Pheng. She goes by Madam Kim. She was on stage, giving this talk about the struggles she had gone through in her life: about her family, the challenges she personally went through. And in that talk, she recounts in detail what she went through with her son. So let’s start with him first, the son.

 

KEE WHAY  

My name is Kee Whay. I'm 48 years old. Right now, I'm doing data entry for my job.

 

RAHMAH  

Data entry wasn't the thing you wanted to do. When Kee Whay was younger, his ambition was actually to become a doctor.

 

KEE WHAY  

From young I wanted to be a doctor, like a heart surgeon.

 

RAHMAH   

Can you tell me a bit more about how...why did you want to be a heart surgeon?

 

KEE WHAY   

Oh, I think just ambition la, like normal ambition, childhood ambition. One thing, not so, not so great about it la.

 

RAHMAH   

Do you remember when you told your mom about you want to be a heart surgeon? How? How did you tell her about it?

 

KEE WHAY   

Yeah, I said [I] want to heal her heart, heartache, because of the separation, so as a doctor, try to help my mom out. My mom is a very strong lady. She's [a] single, single mother, so she's considered a very - I call her Iron Lady lah.

 

When Kee Whay was about 10, his parents got a divorce.  It took a toll on everyone. And it hit him pretty hard. Emotionally, it was a lot. And around this time, things somehow began to change. 

 

RAHMAH  

Did that affect your relationship with your mom? Like I mean, did it get hard? Did you guys have a lot of differences?

 

KEE WHAY   

I lose my temper very quick. And I will scold. And then quite, quite aggressive la. Very bad temper. Just scold lah. She will ask me to do something, so I don't like, so I just react lah, quite many times already lah.

 

RAHMAH   

They would fight a lot. For 5 years, things between them were fraught, and difficult. Communication was breaking down; and they sought out help.

 

KEE WHAY  

She took me to UH doctors. She was there for me in MMHA. She came and became a president - vice president, sorry. I think [she] needs to see a lot of bomoh, indigenous healers, to receive many forums, seminars regarding mental health. So I think my mom, we very, was very responsible for lah my illness. She takes charge.

 

This one time, Madam Kim would bring him to the temple. It was a flower-bathing ritual: to purify him. She had tried everything else, and she thought “maybe this might soothe him, calm him even”. Yet — on every attempt and occasion — it just didn’t work. He did not feel all these things he was promised. In fact, the opposite would happen: his anger would fester, the frustration, the aggression would build. And one day, he just had enough. Here’s Madam Kim. 

 

MADAM KIM 

During these five years he was quite unstable. And so one day I took him again to this temple and I was driving in federal highway. And then he said Mom, where are you taking me? I said oh, we, we go to bathe flower water, he know where already lah. And suddenly he punched me, you know, and I was driving, he punched me. Wow, really it was a real good punch. I can see stars, you know I can see stars. I couldn't really, I stopped by the roadside because dangerous mah. And then he jumped out and he ran off. And luckily, it was near Thean Hou Temple. I got a road to turn in. So I turned in and see whether I can find him because he ran and don't know where. So I went in. I saw him sitting by the roadside on the fencing, you know on the roadside. Then when he saw me and he quickly jumped back to the car because he lost he don't know how to get home. Maybe he don't know how to get home or whatever. He don't know what to do. And then he regretted after he did that he regretted you know immediately jumping into the car. And then he said I don't want to go and bathe ah, I don’t want to go and bathe. So I took him home.

 

RAHMAH   

So did that kind of accidents happen a lot? In which, he became aggressive towards you.

 

MADAM KIM  

Yeah. Quite a number of times, quite a number of times.

 

RAHMAH  

Could you recall a few?

 

MADAM KIM  

One, One night, it was about twelve o’clock at night. And I was driving - he was driving, we let him learn how to drive. He was driving. And I was, I was the passenger. And he drove away halfway. I didn't, I didn't know what I say to him. Or argue with him that he said he hear voices and I don't. That's twelve o'clock at night. So in Jalan University, okay. At the traffic light. And we were - he was arguing with me. I, I also don't know how. At that time, I haven't learnt communication skills okay. So I said no lah, you won't hear voices, mana ada. I say how can I also don't know? Then suddenly, he kicked me out of the car you know. He opened the doors, I say, eh what happened? He kick me, I was out of the car. And he closed the door and very fast drum up. I was so frightened. Number one, I was very frightened to be twelve o’clock in the middle of the night, and on the road. Nobody. Nobody. And he drove so fast. He may met an accident. You know, he drove and then I say oh my god, you know, so I didn't know what to do. Then I saw a lady stopping at the red light. So maybe she saw me like quite genuine lah, you know, not, not, not those people who is going to hurt her or rob her whatever. So she wind down the window. That much, a little bit. So I say, I'm so sorry. My son was sick. And he got temper, suddenly he kicked me out of the car. Now I don't know what to do. And I say can you drop me at university hospital so that I can get a taxi there go home? And I say I am very harmless, I'm not robbing you or whatever. I explain and she look at me quite some times ah. Then she opened the door and let me in. I was very thankful lah but I forgot to ask her name or her contact or whatever. So she drove me to university, Jalan University, and dropped me at opposite. So I came down, I walk opposite and get a taxi home. And that was really, I don't know him, that was one of the instance. Every time you talk to him, before I learned the skill, before I learn how to communicate, I always argue with him. Once you argue he gets very hot temper. He will throw my vase. I got a beautiful vase with 100 flowers, beautiful you know, blue color, quite big you know. I think the only one in Malaysia, cannot find it anymore. And throw. And then he will sometimes pick up something and throw at me you know. So later on I change all my glassware to plastic, plastic bottles. And then sometime he will just come and just punch me. Sometimes on the arm, on the arm is okay, but not on the head. On the head, you really see stars. You really see stars.

 

For years, neither of them could make sense of what was going on, or where this anger was coming from. And for KEE WHAY, it was just that bit louder. And he just didn’t understand why. Until he did.

 

KEE WHAY  

I've been suffering from schizophrenia for thirty over years. 

 

RAHMAH 

Could you tell me more about your illness and what you had to go through?

 

KEE WHAY  

I'm struggling. I struggle to wake up. I struggle to go to work, then do my work task I struggle, struggle to talk with my colleagues. Struggle to come home and do the house chores. Every day is a struggle lah.

 

RAHMAH  

How has your relationships changed with your family and friends after you've got this illness?

 

KEE WHAY   

Tend to be more distant lah, cannot get along. Feel like left out and then a lot of disturbances so kind of like in affected my relationship. Because of the illness, lack of communication. And then my friends all also they one by one, just left.

 

RAHMAH  

When that happened, how did that make you feel? 

 

KEE WHAY  

Feel about a bit left out lah. Sort of like not normal, different, cannot fit into society. Like everything is so perfect for other people, but not yourself, so I feel meaningless or worthless. And I walk through the supermarket I'll glance around, and all of them look so normal to me. But I myself know, not normal. Like, you all are all can talk and then can laugh, you know, can communicate with each other. But for me, I cant, cant do that lah, not normal. Like, how do I define normal. Like, just anywhere lah, and people in the houses and all driving in a car outside. They all look also confident and like without problems. And I'm the only one here have to suffer alone. So it’s a bit like left out, withdrawn. I feel like inferior.

 

 [music]

 

Schizophrenia is a chronic brain disorder. And when it is active, symptoms include a range of things: like lack of motivation, disorganized speech, delusions, and hallucinations. This was one of them.

 

KEE WHAY  

Last time there was one time my sister took me for meditation in Buddhists, in Buddhism temple. So I was meditating, meditating, meditating, suddenly, something came in and tell myself that I will be a Living Buddha. So I'm supposed to help save the world as like what God is doing lah. So I believe I as a God lah, I think that is quite the peak lah in my illness, a peak. I have lots of delusion. And no, it's not real. I thought it was real. I thought I was the chosen one and things like that lah. And then, as God, you need to take away all the world's sufferings, you know, shoulder their suffering, the whole world’s suffering. When suffer like, how, when you're suffering things like that lah.

 

MADAM KIM 

Like for instance, he said, I hear voices. Then I say no, you are only imagining thing. How can you hear voices? I don't hear it. He said, I hear voices. I really hear voices. They're asking me to do this to do that. I said no lah. You cannot be lah. You can't hear voices. I keep contradicting with him, arguing with him, that you don't hear voices, but actually hearing voices is the symptom of people suffering from schizophrenia, is a very common symptom. That is his symptom. But at the time, I didn't know, I haven't learned the communication skill. I haven't learned the programme, the educational programme at that time I didn't know so I keep arguing with him. And when he say has headache lah, he cannot see, he see thin pigs lah. I say how can you see thin pigs. He say he see everything at the end is like an elephant, so big, you know? So I, you know, when he said his bone is shrinking , I took him to Australia to see the bone specialist. When, when he say he's, he's, he can see thin pigs. I took him to see eye specialist. The eye specialist check check check, and no he's only having short sighted, and no increase in power. The glasses is okay, you know. But so it's all hallucination, delusion, hallucination. You know, it's all in his mind. But if you keep arguing with him, he got temper. He got very hot temper then he will punch you and he'll, he'll kick you and luckily he didn't throw me out of the door.

 

RAHMAH   

Did you realize it at that time, or is it something that you have to be? 

 

KEE WHAY  

My mom she discovered. She realized that I was not right, not, not well ah. So she stepped in lah. So like take over my life like for so many years she has been like, taking over for me if I wasn't well, she wouldn't, she wouldn't be like that. She like care of me, take control of all my things ah. Actually a bit too overcontrol ah.

 

Listening to Kee Whay’s story, I began to notice something that kept coming up. In our conversations: Kee Whay would describe his immense gratitude. How much he owes everything to his mother. In the same breath, stuff he would say about her that just felt unresolved. Maybe it was resentment, some sort of tension lying underneath? And if so, I wasn’t sure. 

 

RAHMAH 

So did you tell her that you blame her a little bit? Are you mad at her? Because this happened to you?

 

KEE WHAY  

Yeah, yeah, I do. Because she's a scientists in Oxford University. So to be a scientist in Oxford University, you need to be very intellect, intelligent, hardworking, and very smart. No? So I guess it sort of affected me ah. She has too high expectation for me. I can’t keep up. She want me to study very well, so that’s why I, too high expectation from me lah. Perfectionist and everything, so I blame her. 

 

RAHMAH  

So did you tell her this? 

 

KEE WHAY  

No. But got scold her lah. Yeah.

 

RAHMAH  

So did you tell her that you blame her little bit and that you are mad at her because of all this happen to you?

 

KEE WHAY    

No, she doesn't know anything.

 

RAHMAH  

But do you still feel that way? You still blame your mom a little bit?

 

KEE WHAY 

Not, not so much lah. So in the end, I just forgive you know, and then don't mention the subject lah, avoid lah.

 

EZRA

We’ll be right back after these messages.

 

In some ways, I understood what Kee Whay felt. That lens we have of that significant person that raised and looked after you: it could be your mom, your dad…  It’s complex. A dynamic that carries moments of love, hate and everything in between. And maybe especially to those closest to us, we find it harder to reveal how we truly feel.

 

MADAM KIM 

Okay. This one is yours, I drink black.

 

RAHMAH   

You like yours black?

 

MADAM KIM 

Yeah, I like mine black. I got a book. Maybe you can take a photo of my book, it’s not my book lah, is a coffee table book.

 

RAHMAH   

Yeah, I saw that from afar.

 

To understand Kee Whay and why he felt what he did, I needed to hear Madam Kim’s side of the story. And straight from the outset, she seemed familiar: like that aunty we all knew and loved. Friendly, sincere, curious, considerate. We flipped through her past: old photo albums, newspaper clippings, whatever she could find...

 

MADAM KIM  

I really cincai cincai one. I don't dress up. I don't want, you know. So I think y'all have a photo lah. On page. This is my write-up. And they put me next to this most beautiful person who makeup most they put me with her. But I never, I never makeup. See whether can on the aircon, it’s very hot these days ah.

 

Madam Kim was born in the 1940s. As it was of that era, there were expectations of a young girl, especially in an Asian household. After doing well at school, it coincided with a once in a lifetime opportunity — to leave home, and study abroad.

 

MADAM KIM 

So I asked my father, my mother, whether I can go and study? And but my father doesn't allow. He said it's a girl, you know, she’ll get married, and there's no need to send her for further education. Then later on, I kept pressing my mother and finally she came back and say okay, Father, say if you want to go you will not inherit any of his inheritance. You know, he will not give you any more money. After you come back. Then you can go overseas and study which one you prefer? And I say I prefer to go overseas to have my further education. I don't want any of his money in future. That's it. So I went to Dublin.

 

RAHMAH  

What did you want to be when as a kid? And did you manage to do that as an adult?

 

MADAM KIM  

To be truthful, I didn't have a lots of plan. I didn't say, Oh, I want to be this, I want to be that. I didn't have any plan what I want to be, but all I want is to go and have my further study, because I like to go overseas to get the experience. And I like to further my study, what, what work I will be doing, I didn't know.

 

She scored in her exams. But despite getting the requisite grades, she was denied entry to pursue engineering — there weren’t enough women in the course, she was told. Architecture, her second choice  — well, all the slots had been taken up. She eventually pursued a science degree — and after 4 years, this would be the platform that would bring her to Oxford, where she committed her energy and time to the study of rocks.

 

MADAM KIM  

They will scrape a little bit of the rock and send the rock to us, we will analyze how old is that piece of rock, and then where they are from, what country this kind of rock from, then they will know whether this piece of antique is real, or not real. And then Armstrong,  American, Armstrong went up to the moon in Apollo 11, to the Sea of Tranquility, brought back a piece of moon rock. And Houston gave the moon rock to five countries only. And England is one of the country who received that rock. And our laboratory is the person who received that piece of moon rock. So I have a chance to assist Dr. Snarling and Dr. Streambank to analyze that piece, that little piece of moon rock.

 

RAHMAH  

What did you like about being in lab and working as a you know, in the science field? As a scientist, sort of. What did you like about it?

 

MADAM KIM  

Oh, I love it. Because the[re] I met a lots of PhD students. And because I was the only Chinese girl there. And every time when we have tea break, they like to crowd at me and talk with me. At that time I was slim, got long hair, you know, and not that loud. Now, 77. And then every month, we will have a party in each student's house. And we all bring a bottle, a bottle of wine or a bottle of beer or whatever. So I really enjoyed that. And I enjoyed the chitchat.

 

RAHMAH   

So you enjoy meeting people more than you actually enjoyed the science?

 

MADAM KIM 

No, I enjoyed meeting them. I also met this the guy who cannot speak, what’s was the name? 

 

RAHMAH  

Yes, is that Stephen Hawking? 

 

MADAM KIM 

Yes, yes. We also met him. He came to Oxford to visit the lab. And then I also have a chance to meet him. And then during the work, during our work, I learned how to do computer.

 

RAHMAH  

It sounded like you were pretty scientific person. Would you say that? Like you're very like scientific-minded, [scientific-]oriented, sort of right? 

 

MADAM KIM  

I mean, can consider that lah. Right? But at that time, I didn't think of that. I'm very scientific-minded. You know, I just do what I do. Yeah, I did. And I love my job. And then in London slab, I met a guy and we were playing chess. So he taught me how to play chess. Every time I lose, I will have to buy him a croissant. In England, the croissant is very nice. So I have bought him at least 50 croissants. I think the number 51 he bought it back for me. I win, once. Then from that onwards then my chess improved.

 

I was struck by the simplicity and joy in her voice: the casual name drop of these great men of history: Armstrong, Hawking. Her daily rapport with her colleagues or just the chance opportunities to experience life. Life seemed ...perfect. She would meet her then husband - he was Malaysian too - and, at the Royal Berkshire Hospital in Reading, she gave birth to two kids: a boy and a girl. But after 14 years of living in the UK, the family eventually relocated back home to Malaysia.

 

MADAM KIM 

And at that time, a lots of people migrating into England and it was a bit of... a bit of discrimination for foreigners and then the house we live in, [there was] also a guy from France, you know, always sending us messages, things like that. And, and so we are afraid, you know that guy maybe may do some harm to the children or me. So we decided to sell the house and move back.

 

RAHMAH   

But you were so successful there, it sounded like..were you sad?

 

MADAM KIM  

Not really, not really successful, I am just doing what I do. And I enjoy my work, I enjoy my work. So I just doing that. I don't have any sense of like, I want to be like that. I want to be like this. I want to be a successful woman or what I never thought of that. I really never thought of that.

 

RAHMAH  

And you didn't mind coming home to, back to Malaysia, although you loved it in England.

 

MADAM KIM 

I don't mind, I came back. That was where the troubles start.

  

Upon returning, she couldn’t find a job: there was nothing available for her specific scientific skill set back home. Not soon after, her brother was struck by cancer. For 8 months, she was his caregiver before he died at 30. Much later on, she would spend more time in the hospital: this time, to care for her father, who was in and out of coma. To cap it off, her marriage was on the rocks.

 

MADAM KIM  

After we came back. We were still together for quite many years. And we sold our house in England, we bought a house in PJ and it was quite comfortably we live on. And then I have my work, he also has his work, so our income is quite comfortable okay. Then until one day, I realized that he got a girlfriend. The girlfriend is his secretary. You know, there was when I was 40. He started having a girlfriend. Occasionally he will say she always made me coffee, you never make me coffee. But of course at the working place, the secretary of course make boss coffee. I'm not in the factory with him. He's a factory manager, director now. And of course, I have no time to make him coffee when he come back, it’s already late. And then the year he came back one year, and then a year later he had another girlfriend. Maybe I neglected him or something. Or maybe it's the time that he need another girlfriend. I don't know. So we separated.

 

RAHMAH   

And you mentioned something about like so which is why if you want to find someone find that find a man who loves you.

 

MADAM KIM 

Yes, I say find someone who loves you, not someone you love them and don't find a handsome man. But find someone who loves you. Why is that? Because when when when you actually, my ex is quite handsome. You see my son, you know, tall and good looking. And I mean, everybody said that he's good looking. And so when you work in the workplace, when you are nice, good looking and then mature you know. The girls will flock to you. Automatically they will do that. I mean, I think that is the nature. That is the nature. And I can't stop that. And at that time I was 40, how am I going to find with someone 20 years old? No way. Okay. Now, if the man is not stable, then they will just go into it. Actually, my ex husband is not someone who is a playboy. Not a playboy, like I like this girl, and I like that girl, no, you know. Once he is in love with someone, he will in love with that girl, and he forget about you that he should be honest, and sincere and faithful to that person. That's what my friend told me because they call him out. And he say, Oh, I cannot, you know, I cannot leave her now because I don't want to upset her or what. But then my friend say what about your wife? They don't think of you anymore. They think of the other person. So actually, he was not a playboy type. He just get on to someone and then he just stick to it. But after one year, of course the girl left him and then he got another girl. He he went to another place and then he got another girl. And I think that's lah. And then this girl has been with him for about 30, more than 30 years.

 

RAHMAH  

So how did your life change after that? How did that make you feel?

 

MADAM KIM 

At the beginning, I tried to kill myself. And all my trousers don't fit me anymore. Because I don't, I can't eat. I cannot, I have no appetite. One side, he left, he left us from the house. And the children were very upset. And I'm working. I just started my business. I just started my business, and he don't give us lots of money. He don't give us a maintenance, you know, and I need to work, I have work to work very hard. But I still have to live on, I still have to look after my children. Because he think that the children belongs to me is better that I take care of them. You know, it's better for me to take care of them. But he don't give us enough support. I had to work very hard at work very hard. 

 

RAHMAH  

How did that affect your children? 

 

MADAM KIM 

At the beginning, I didn't know that he affect them so much. But later, after they have got this mental illness, one by one, my daughter don't get it until a few years later. But my son got it more or less 17 you know, and but he left us when my children were about 10 11. So my son got his mental illness when he was 17. Actually that started and it sparked, but my son got the mental illness is because of his girlfriend.

 

Okay, so, it’s a long story, but here’s what you need to know. Kee Whay starts dating a girl. Madam Kim hints at some type of resistance coming from her family. But despite that, he was head over heels in love with her. After a series of events: including Kee Whay flying all the way to India, with her, to pursue his studies -- they broke up. He was heartbroken, and returns back home to his mom. And as far as Madam Kim's concerned, he was never the same again.

 

MADAM KIM  

After a couple of months, the girl wrote to him that she got married in India with one of the guy who went with her. So he got that letter, then he said mom, how can, how can she got married because she loved me so much. When she before she goes, she loved me very much. How can she in love with other guy and got married? He cannot. And from that day onwards, he got depression. He got depression, he was looking at the ceiling every day cannot sleep, cannot study, cannot concentrate. And he started his depression then and then slowly develop into schizophrenia.

 

RAHMAH  

Do you ever feel like, it felt like a second time rejection for him? Having his dad gone from his life? And then then this girl? Have you ever like reflected on those two experiences being fairly similar to him? What did you feel about that?

 

MADAM KIM  

I think now, you know, now to come back to think about it. I think the first when the parents or the father left? It started to sparkle? You know, but they wouldn't say. When the father left them during that one year, both my children always get sick, cannot baby la, cannot go to toilet la or stomach ache la, got wind la. Every day they complain to me. Every week, I will take my children to see doctor and we took back medicine and they don't take. Then after taking the medicine back they say oh, no need, I don't need the medicine. I think started then they already got depression, but they wouldn't say because at that time I was crying also you know. So I go into the toilet. I turn on the shower, and I cry in the bathroom.

 

RAHMAH  

How did you feel when you had to like go to the bathroom and cry on your own?

 

MADAM KIM  

It's good. You know after you cry, you you feel relief. But that relief is only for that time or for that night you know, but the next day it will come back again. It won’t go off. 

 

RAHMAH   

I think you also had a lot on your plate though, Madam Kim. I didn't think, I don't think you should kind of, I don't think you should just relate that, oh, it's because of the divorce. And then you cried. And you didn't, you didn't look after them. So you were not aware that they had depression? Because you also had a lot on your plate, right?

 

MADAM KIM  

No, I do look after them. I do look after them. But I don't realize that they are actually suffering from the beginning of the depression. I didn't realize that. I didn't realize that. I also very [unalert] about mental illness. I didn't realize that this can spark off. Yeah, yeah, there are mental illness. You know, I didn't realize.

 

RAHMAH  35:43  

Could you take me back this time when you said that you were feeling like it was your fault. You know, like, everything was your fault. And you were blaming yourself a lot. Because with the divorce, you're blaming yourself a lot for whatever that happened to your children. Could you talk to me about it? Like, why did you feel that way?

 

MADAM KIM  

Actually, it started from my son, you know, he, when he was sick, and he kept saying that is your fault? When we argue when we quarrel, he obviously is your fault. You made me like that. If you who made me like that. Then I asked him, I say what did I do to make you like that? I don't know. Like, you made me like that, I'm sick now, it’s your fault. It's my fault. Maybe he thinks that the separation of the parents is my fault. Okay. And of course our separation can be two persons for all right. And, and then he keeps saying that. So sometimes I think maybe it's my fault. Maybe it's my fault. 

 

RAHMAH  

And you internalize it. 

 

MADAM KIM 

Yeah, I feel that aiyo, what have I done wrong? What have I done wrong? I must change myself. I was very hot temper, I was very quick temper and I am still hot temper and quick temper, but not as before. Before, ah, I immediately just bomb, you know, even to my staff, you know. Ah, very hot temper. But after my children's sickness, after my son's keep blaming me, then I felt I must change myself.

 

RAHMAH   

What was it exactly that you were feeling? Was that blame? Was it blaming yourself? Or was a like some sense of why is this happening to me why? Like I'm the reason why this is happening to my children. My children don't love me. Like what exactly that was going on, in your mind, as you were deciding to attend suicide.

 

MADAM KIM  

I think when you are trying to attempt suicide must be very something very upsetting, very unpleasant things happen to you. To my cases, my son refused to see doctors refuse to take medication. Okay. And every time I take him to see doctors, every time he don't like to wait, you know seeing doctor, you have to wait for some time, three hours, you have to be sitting in the waiting area for three hours. So every time he hates to go and see doctors, so after a while after an hour or so, he will say mom you want a coffee? He'll ask me because he knows that I love coffee. I say okay, then you go to the coffee machine, he never come back with a coffee for me, he will let and get home and sleep at the time. No handphone mah, I cannot buy him a handphone and all that there was quite many years ago. So you know, you feel so upset every time like that. So every time it ends up, that I was the one that is seeing the doctors, I'm the one that is seeing the doctors, so I feel very upset. And then sometimes he punched me. I feel very upset. And then he refused to go for treatment. I'm very upset, you know, he refused to take medication. I was very upset. I don't know what to do. I didn't, at that time, I was no idea of positive thinking, okay. And I said, aiyo, you're when can he get well, aiyo, he will never get well, how am I going to do? What am I going to do? Why my son, why everybody, you know, everybody can go overseas study, why my son, why, why him, why him, why him. And then until one day, you, you burst, you burst, you cannot control yourself. So you try to end your life. And I can tell you, ending your life is the most stupid thing to do, is the most stupid thing to do. And now, to think back, you know, if I'm not around, who's going to look after my children, but I'm thinking who's going to look after my son, or even my daughter? It is not necessary that odd, she will be very stable and stay with the other party. So who's going to look after them? You know, all this, you know, I don't know what to do, don't know what to do, then you just want to end your life. But now I feel that, you know, don't do that. Don't do that.

 

RAHMAH   

What stopped you as you were attempting it?

 

MADAM KIM  

Actually is very easy to jump out, very easy you just go into and drop, that's it you know.

 

RAHMAH   

And you were living in a condominium you said, at twelfth floor.

 

MADAM KIM  

Yes. To hold on to who or not to jump to hold on that moment. Not to jump, okay. And you need to call someone and talk to someone. You need to call on someone. And luckily, I got a girlfriend. And she knew I love coffee. So every time she said why are you doing now Kim, what are you doing now? I said I want to jump already. No, no, no, she said, go and make yourself coffee. And so I say, oh, I heard of coffee. I say, okay lah, let me drink a cup of coffee first before I jump. Something like that. But of course, when you're drinking a coffee, you are thinking of your children also, that if you die, what's gonna happen to them, you know. But then that moment is very difficult to decide, or this is good for you, this is not good. It is not easy. At that moment, if the urge is there to go to the window, and you know, jump. So when I'm making the coffee, it take times, when I'm thinking. Because my condo is quite big okay, and for me to walk from the living room to the kitchen is quite a while and then wait for the water to boil. And I sit in the dry kitchen to have your coffee, you know, then you think think you know. And then I say cannot la cannot la, I still have to go you know. Then my friend keep having the headphone asked me not to switch off. Luckily I got electric. Otherwise I cannot. She came all the way back from KL, drove back from KL. And then she talked to me the whole afternoon, stayed with me the whole afternoon and evening. 

 

RAHMAH  

And she kept asking you to make another cup of coffee. 

 

MADAM KIM 

She asked me twice to make another cup coffee. So I make another cup of coffee. This is something also hold me back. My children, who's going to look after them. And then the coffee. The thing that I like coffee also.

 

RAHMAH   

So that's two things that you like the most hold you back.

 

MADAM KIM  

My children is the more important than the coffee. But I thought you know, okay lah, since I'm already going to Bye bye, I better have another cup of coffee, otherwise, I've died I cannot have coffee. You know, sometimes you cannot imagine what human beings mind think you know. Isn't it you cannot, but of course the most important is who is going to look after them. If I die who's going to look after them? I find that I also talked to someone I'm a Buddhist. I'm a very keen Buddhist, my son is Christian. So I talked to him about this. And then I realized that we must let go. We must let go. We let go. It doesn't mean that you give up. You let go. It doesn't mean that you have no responsibility of your loved one. You know you can let go. You can not think about the bad thing. Not Don't think about the bad thing, use the positive thinking. Nowaday, I use lots of positive thinking when someone is doing bad thing to me. At the beginning. I'm very upset and very angry. Then later on. I say, oh, that is her fault. Not my fault. She's doing something bad is not me who is bad. She is bad. You know? So you, you just let go, you let go, you let go, you forgive, you let go, you forgive, and then slowly, the life will come back to you. And positive thinking is very important. The life will come back to you, just keep on doing what you like to do, doing what you like to do. And then my most important thing is my children, my children will be my priority.

 

[music]

 

Kee Whay describes her mom as this iron lady. It wasn’t clear at the time, but I began to understand. I understood just how far her life had strayed from the path that she’d once imagined. How much of herself she had sacrificed: first for her husband, then for her children, her brother, for others around her. But if you asked her about any of these things — the emotional burden and toll she carried of her own tragedies — she’d maintain that, all that was secondary. And that, what happened to her children was in part due to some shortcoming that was hers, and hers alone. It struck me as quietly tragic. How heavy her world seemed. How lonely it must have been.

RAHMAH 

It sounds like your whole life you have been a caregiver. Even before your children ended up in the situation, you are already taking care of your brother, or your late brother, and your father as well.

 

MADAM KIM 

I think never thought about that, you know, until today, you say I, my whole I have been a caregiver. Now. You're right. But the thing is, I never thought of it. I never thought of this, that I I've been taking care of people and I never thought of it. Now I'm not just taking care of my son and I don't need to take care my daughter lah, but of course, I still take her out for lunch and still go out with her. But I also have lots of the caregiver also call me back. And I don't take care of them. But I talked to them, I motivate them. I encouraged them. And I don't think of that I'm taking care of them. You know, I am just trying my best if I can help them in some way, or just talking also, they need someone to talk to. Now but I never thought I'd take care of my father or my brother. No, I never thought of that. You know, I never thought about that. You know, now you make me think of that. But I don't think I would think of that.

 

RAHMAH   

Yeah. So how does that make you feel? Almost like you've never had anyone taking care of you.

 

MADAM KIM  

That is true. That is true. But I, sometimes can be quite lonely.

 

RAHMAH   

I have a question. So the other day I spoke to your mom. And do you have any idea that she felt, because she's been taking care of so many people or his her life, that she just realized that she gets a bit lonely? How does that make you feel knowing that your mom actually like given all of this help and work that she does for other people, that she deep down feels rather lonely sometimes. How does that make you feel?

 

KEE WHAY  

[Regret] lah. You mean she’s being lonely lah?

 

RAHMAH   

She just feels like a little bit lonely because she feels like she's in this fight alone sometimes, you know, because she takes care of so many people all her life. She does, she actually feels like a normal human being. How does that make you feel? Knowing that your mom feels? What would you say?

 

KEE WHAY   

Maybe try to help her out. Maybe show more concern lah in detail the things. Maybe buy her things that she likes, take her out more often, don't scold her, try not to scream or shout at her.

 

RAHMAH    

Did you realize that?

 

KEE WHAY    

Not really ah. But there was once I know a bit lah, but i didn't take it to heart lah. I think now, I should change lah, I should change my character. Not so aggressive and also violent.

 

RAHMAH    

Do you think she should still feel that way?

 

KEE WHAY  

I think no.

 

RAHMAH    

Why is that?

 

KEE WHAY  

Because actually not her fault lah. Although she is doing very well, but it’s not her fault that her children are being like this lah. Because my action all,she takes. A very good, responsible mom lah, only me lacking only. I have to find lah, find and try not to do bad, do more good things.

 

RAHMAH   

Do you know what [are] some of your mom’s hopes for you now?

 

KEE WHAY    

Yeah, I think she wants me to get well soon.

 

RAHMAH   

How do you feel about that?

 

KEE WHAY   

Yea, I guess that's one of my hopes also. To get well, normal, normal person be able to enjoy life and find meaning in life.

 

RAHMAH   

But I think your mom is proud of you. You know?

 

KEE WHAY   

Yeah, she genuinely loves me and she genuinely so, it’s just I don't accept only, that's all. As a person with mental illness, I don't accept lah, I feel can difficult to accept. I'm actually have to use a lot my willpower, which doesn't help at all. So angry lah, despair also a lot, so a lot despair, but life goes on lah. I think I can be more positive. A lot of people, like me have so much problems. I'm not the only one. Although I don't see them right now, but not far away there are people with similar problems like me. That's why I'm trying my best to help out the people around me, all my rehab friends who are going through so much suffering. I guess I'm more lucky lah. I'm better by far from them.

 

For more than 20 years now, Kee Whay has been attending counseling. He hasn’t missed an appointment. There are good days, and not so good days. He talks about the discipline it requires. He reflects on the support, especially from his mother. But also, the support he now lends to others. Including his mother. 

 

RAHMAH  

Do you remember that time when your mom had a stroke?

 

KEE WHAY   

Yeah, I remember. I brought her to seek treatment.

 

RAHMAH   

Could you tell me about that day? How did it happen?

 

KEE WHAY   

I think one day I just woke up my walk through a room. Then I found her lying there, then I think maybe something not right lah. So shake her a bit. And she woke up and then her speak is blur already. And then her hands movement also slowly already, so I know straightaway there's a stroke. So luckily, I managed to somehow rather get her to UH. I can't remember what, how I did lah. But I know I took her there and seek treatment and then she recovered lah.

 

RAHMAH   

What did you feel that time? Were you afraid? Were you scared?

 

KEE WHAY   

No, not really. Also it’s my mom, my mom didn't show any signs of fear.

 

RAHMAH   

Why do you think that is? Why do you think your mom never show signs of fear?

 

KEE WHAY   

She seems so confident like nothing, nothing wrong like that lah.

 

RAHMAH  

So being around her when she feels that way, how does that make you feel to be around somebody who does not show any signs of fear?

 

KEE WHAY    

Also my confident also grow lah. Sort of like, shower me as well lah. Like she's confident and then I'm confident. She's brave then I'm brave.

 

RAHMAH   

So, god forbid, what if something happened to your Mom, do you think you can take care of her as well as she did for you?

 

KEE WHAY   

Can, no worries, can.

 

RAHMAH   

What, how, why do you say that?

 

KEE WHAY   

Because right now I think one thing is I'm handling my mom's financial needs. So I feel confident that I can take care of my mom. Even though we've faced [mental] illness, I can still contribute to my mom lah.

 

RAHMAH   

Right. So looking back, if you were in your mom's shoes, how would you have dealt with everything that you went through, as her son?

 

KEE WHAY   

Looking back, if I were in my mom’s shoes, I'll be more loving and considerate. Loving is very important thing, every human being wants to be loved somehow or other. They want to be validated, like Oprah Winfrey also mentioned before. Love is very important in a person's life. The Bible also states that the most important teaching in [the] Bible is to love your neighbors, we say like, number one teaching. So I think if my mom’s shoes, I will be more loving, more kind, not so angry so fast. Sometimes I wonder why am I alive for this thing? I haven't found the answer yet. I think I depend on Jesus lah, see whether he can help me or not. Sometimes I feel like I'm wondering lah, say what life is really about, why is it like nothing, no feeling any much thing, nothing happening. Blank, nothing, no meaning. I think when people have serious illness, the first thing that will come in your mind is why me, you know. How come is this my fault? And why am I having these? So it's called denial lah. A lot of people have it one. So I think I was in a lot of denial lah. I wanted to use my own willpower to help myself, although I can’t but I try. But I think in the end, the medicine won lah, the doctors won over me. I see doctors, I take medications. After I start seeing a psychiatrist, I got better and then I begin to accept a bit lah. Right now also I am in a lot of denial, until now I still didn’t improve much lah.

 

RAHMAH 

Why did you keep going to try and heal him? What was this - this like, mother-son bond, or mother child bond? 

 

MADAM KIM 

I think all parents, all mothers, you will love your children. No matter what they did. But I’m sure all the mothers, will love their children, will forgive them. Okay? All the mothers, all the parents, will love their children. Without any expectations, or rewards, or payback. I feel that all the mothers got this instinct of wanting their children to get better. To recover. Love is automatic, because you don’t need to think, that ‘Oh, I love him. I want him to get [better].’ No. Automatically you will feel for it. You will feel that you watn him to get well. You will feel that you want to give [him] a better life.

 

RAHMAH   

Madam Kim, you mentioned something about how your hopes for your children are now different. So back then he was like, I want I want him to be a heart surgeon or like I want him to like have a good career. And now you said that the hopes have changed? A little bit?

MADAM KIM  

Not little bit. A lot.

 

RAHMAH  

A lot? Could you tell me about that? 

 

MADAM KIM 

Before of course you hope that they can become this, they become that. But now, my most hope, my most important hope is they are healthy. They get well, they're healthy. They can live independently. Just a normal person, just be an ordinary person, you know, have enough food, no matter what food not necessary all the time, good food and all that just enough you know, healthy food salad or whatever healthy food and hope that they can do a lot of exercise to keep themselves healthy. That is my most important aim. Hope that they will be healthy, and they will be well functioning and no more relapse. That is my biggest hope. And my son also now is getting better. He's helping other people who suffer from mental disorder or recovered patient. He's taking them out. He's now the peer support leader. Peer Support is a very new thing in Malaysia. Okay. Peer Support means someone who is already recovered and help the others who are recovering or encourage or motivate them. So he is now having a group of his own friend. And before that he called his previous classmate. They all not coming to see him. You know, they all say I'm very busy, I got kids to go to my mother in law’s place that New Year. And, and it was very, very upsetting. You know? Now, he don't call them anymore he got his group of friends and, and talk the same language. They understand each other, as they hear voices, he also hear voices. Okay? So he managed to bring some, some of the recovered patient out from the house, who have been locking themselves in the house used to come up, is taking them out, going to another place to visit another guy, recovered patient who is doing a work working in one of the McDonald’s. When he walked a few steps forward, he walked back to set, when he walked front three step, he walked back another two step, four step he will make other three step, you know. So every time lunchtime, in [the] Malaysian Mental Health [Association], my son is the only one that is automatically following him. Because he said he felt pity for him, you know, so he follow him, he walked three step, he walked back two step, my son for him. By the time both of them reach the marketplace on the next road, the whole group already come back, finish. And I say, hey, bye bye, see you back in the Association. And so after two years, my son follow him. Just keep, every day follow him. I really salute his patience, you know, and now that guy is working very well, got quite good salary, very good salary. And that guy, no one would imagine that he can work so well. The manager also, that manager, he got a Malay lady, who is the manager and also understand him, understand him. And so when my son organise, sometimes 10 of them, 15 of them go and makan McDonald’s, then he will come out, let him come out, take photo you know. And my son say, you know, nowadays when he goes home, he's smiling. Now he's smiling. So I asked him I said, why you keep going to McDonald’s, he said he want to motivate this guy, encourage him so that he wouldn't quit, he wouldn't change the job. Because people suffering from mental disorder when they work, they cannot work for long. They will change job. But this guy I think he's been working there for three years, or something like that. And he's very happy. And because he don't like to face people, the manager let him walk in the kitchen, frying potato chips you know, doing kitchen work and he's very happy, and the mother also very happy.

 

RAHMAH   

What does taking care of your mom mean for you?

 

KEE WHAY   

Because she's been so good to me so I think I have to repay my with kindness lah. To be filial also to our parents, very important. I just don’t know this whole life I don't know whether I can repay her all the kindness she gave me, I don't know what I can repay or not? But I try my best lah.

 

RAHMAH   

So looking back at how you now are able to work and you know that go on your day to day life. It seems that you've accomplished a lot you know, like you have made a long way for being able to function on day to day basis. What would you say to your mom on that?

 

KEE WHAY   

I'm grateful for her lah. I love her a lot. Just say, Mom, I love you.

 

RAHMAH   

Do you say that often?

 

KEE WHAY   

Seldom. I say to my dad more often. 

 

RAHMAH 

Why is that? 

 

KEE WHAY  

I'm not sure. Just difficult lah, to express myself. I think my mom also find it awkward to express her feelings towards me lah.

 

RAHMAH   

She does more than she expresses.

 

KEE WHAY  

Yeah, that’s right. Yeah.

 

RAHMAH   

Does it make you feel sad that she doesn't say it enough? 

 

KEE WHAY  

No, it doesn't.

 

RAHMAH   

Why is that?

 

KEE WHAY   

I can feel mah.

 

[noise disturbance]

 

MADAM KIM 

He got constipation. And if you eat tau jiong, the water with banana, then it will help you to reduce the constipation. 

 

RAHMAH

Ohh. 

 

MADAM KIM 

Yes, so every time I buy for him.

 

KEE WHAY   

See, very loving mother.

 

[laughs] 

 

MADAM KIM 

There, [it’s] open, open, open. God.

 

MADAM KIM  

I am very loving because I buy him tau fu fah.

 

[background noise] 

 

MADAM KIM

Okay, actually They are selling for only RM5.50. So I’m saying,you don't sell for RM5, you sell for RM6.00.  I mean, [it’s] a big bottle! There’s no other place, and when you turn around, some [other] place sells for RM8.00, and another place sells for RM9.00!  So, I said, you sell for Rm6.00. Otherwise, how to make money? So big, you know? You buy two bottles, because they're round, you buy two bottles, and you buy the tau fu fah lah, buy 4 lah. 

 

KEE WHAY

4 tau fu fah, the bottle big one right? 

 

MADAM KIM

Yes, the big one. You want a big one? Or a small one, the tau fu fah.

 

RAHMAH

I don't know - do you want the big one? I’m okay with anything. I'm okay- I'm okay with anything.

 

MADAM KIM

Four lah, four lah. 

 

RAHMAH

And black sugar. Thank you!

 

MADAM KIM

Ah, black sugar. I don’t want- Mine, don’t put sugar. 

 

RAHMAH

Yeah, all of us, put sugar. 

 

MADAM KIM

But the drink, don’t put so much sugar. 

 

[conversation fades out] 

 

[music] 

 

Madam Kim is gonna turn 80 this year. And Kee Whay is going to turn 50 soon. They're doing okay. Over the past year, Madam Kim has been busy with a lot of charity, she’s been cooking a lot. She has been providing meals to the needy. As far as her relationship with Kee Whay is concerned, they still fight. A lot. On weekends, especially when Madam Kim insists that Kee Whay should wake up early, and enjoy the sun, and do all of these exercises that's good for your body. And Kee Whay would insist that he just wants to stay in bed. But Madam Kim told me that this is just like any other relationship in a family. And she’s accepted it, and she celebrates it. But if we've learned anything, tau fu fah, more than anything else brings family together.

 

EZRA

Rahmah Pauzi, my thanks to her. Special thanks to Poh Kim Pheng, or Madam Kim, as well as Chan Kee Whay. On the show, you heard about their ties to the Malaysian Mental Health Association, or the MMHA. If you, or someonw you know, might need help, find out more about them in the shownotes. There, you will find a list of centres, helplines, and organisations providing mental health support for anyone that might need it. 

 

[music] 

 

The Ezra Zaid Project is made by me, Ezra Zaid. I host, produce and edit the show. 

This episode was written by me and co-produced with Rahmah Pauzi. 

Assistant producer: Hidayah Hisham.

The team that contributed to this episode includes Ting Yen Min, Isa, Asper Goh, Sabrina Yusof, Melati Kamaruddin and Chun Saw. 

 

Special shoutout to our intern Yen Min: it’s her last week at the Project. My personal thanks, we wish her all the best as she embarks on the next chapter.

 

Additional music is by Blue Dot Sessions.

Our theme music is by Breakmaster Cylinder featuring Rakin Suflan.

 

Follow us on social media: our handle is @projectezrazaid and you can find us on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. Listen to previous episodes on ezrazaid.com or subscribe to us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or however you listen to podcasts. And until next time, stay safe and we’ll see you soon.